Sunday ferries - how it used to be
Some very kind person has sent me a link to the Highland Railway timetable for 1918.
Jump to page 19 and read the following:
Jump to page 19 and read the following:
STORNOWAY AND KYLE OF LOCHALSH DIRECT
Leave Stornoway for Kyle of Lochalsh on Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays at midnight to connect with the 11:00 train.
36 comments:
Um - the Sabbath ends at midnight, Angus, and in any event there was a war on in 1918. There does seem to have been a brief spell when the LOCH NESS - Stornoway mailboat from 1929 to 1947 - left for Kyle and Mallaig very late on Sunday night: There is reference to controversy in The Diary of Kenneth A MacRae; and Duckworth and Langmuir's classic text, West Highland Steamers, notes of the LOCH SEAFORTH 91947-1972) that 'in speed she was capable of leaving Stornoway at 12.15 am and reaching Kyle and Mallaig in time for the mail trains; and this satisfied those who used to object strongly to the sailings of the former ships at 11.45 pm on Sundays.'
There is a good story about Mr MacRae, the town's Free Church minister from 1931 to 1964 and of austere, majestic presence.
He had a quiet running battle with one local polician, Provost MacKenzie, who made little secret of his contempt for Lewis religion.
Very early one Monday, a few minutes after midnight, Mr MacRae materialised at No. 1 pier and strode up the gangway of the LOCH SEAFORTH for mainland travel.
His bete noir stood by on the deck. 'Good evening, Mr Macrae!' he cackled.
The minister eyed him coldly.
'Good MORNING, Provost MacKenzie.'
Leaves Stornoway at midnight on Sunday - is that technically the Sabbath anymore? Isn't it Monday morning....
the point is that the ferry is still WORKING on a sunday.
I am a local christian... in our regular Bible Study on Nehemiah. we came across this "WHEN the pagan nations come in to your cities to trade with you..." Well i'll leave you to guess and put in the answer later!
What John Macleod either forgets, or doesn't know, is that you cannot just start a ship's engine that way one can a car. In order to sail at 00:15 work would be taking place on the vessel from the Sunday evening. Loading would also have to take place or would the cars be loaded on a Saturday?
As people have to be checked in 30 minutes before the v/l leaves this would be late Sunday evening. Oh dear Mr MacLeod, more breaking of the sabbath.
The fact that the ferries were also running on a Sunday outwith the war years somewhat obiates Mr. MacLeod's reason as why the ferries were running on a Sunday.
In order to appear at the pier just after midnight, one assumes that Mr. MacRae would have had to pack his bags and leave his place of abode prior to midnight. Shame on him!
Perhaps Provost Mackenzie's contempt was not for religion perse, but rather the hypocritical way it was practised and still is by some.
Did all the crew, passengers, mail, etc instantly materialise on board for departure at midnight, so that no one would break the Sabbath?
If John MacLeod is correct, I presume the timetable (issued in June 1918) was altered in November 1918, since there would then be no war on.
Can I also presume that Rev MacRae lived within a couple of minutes of No 1 Pier, otherwise he might be breaking the Sabbath by lugging his luggage from the manse on Sunday night?
Midnight on Sunday, ie, just after Saturday night, I presume.
Midnight is always the start of a new day, not the end of the day. Because as soon as midnight comes to be, it is a new day.
So what that means is that all the loading and maintenance would be done on a Saturday night, but it would still have left on the Sabbath.(Unless they had a secret agreement they didn't tell the timetable publishers, where it left 2 mins before midnight or something. I wouldn't be surprised)
All the passengers would be onboard at least ten minutes before departure. But the boat would still be moving on a Sunday, within a stones throw of Lewis. I mean it takes 15 mins to clear Arnish and get into open water.
Finally regarding the above folklore tale, would not the minister have had to pack his bags and drive down to the ferry terminal on the Sabbath.
Am I alone in seeing this whole discussion as laughably ridiculous? No wonder "the outside world" think us backward.
Just give us the boat at a sensible time on a Sunday and let those who want to use it do so, and vice versa.
Dear Mr Calmac
In the interests of world peace and advanced nit-picking, can you please start your Sunday services to Lewis and Harris as soon as possible, preferably today (yes that would be Friday then...which is also the Sabbath for some religions). No one will put a hole in your boats, no one will run nude through Vatisker, and your ticket sales will go thought the roof (especially if someone does run nude through Vatisker). Please, please get on with it so that we can resume the business of moaning about buses, stale veg in the supermarkets and the terrible traffic arrangements in Stornoway.
Yours ever so sincerely
Dr Evadne Whinge
PS If you do run a Sunday service the veg may turn up a bit fresher on Monday.
errr I wouldn't argue with John Macleod about Cal Mac ferries. He's havering and/or japing about the sabbath stuff, but he knows his ferries. I once read somewhere. And for some reason remembered.
Dr Evadne
Now to see you run naked through Vatisker thats a thought
1.43pm
Where is this 'outside world' that thinks we're backward? Have some self esteem, for goodness sake. Have you seen what the rest of the world argues about? Yes..laughably ridiculous stuff, just like here. We're no different and certainly no more backward.
We don't know where this outside world is because we don't have ferries that run there!!!
Commentors so far have not fully studied this timetable, and it does require studying.
The Ferry leaves Kyle of Lochalsh on Saturday at 4pm and steams to Stornoway a distance of about 60 nautical miles as the crow flys but in reality probably closer to 65 nautical miles. It then has to discharge it's cargo and passengers (no RoRo in those days)and reload and be ready for the return journey at midnight Sunday. It has to be back at Kyle of Lochalsh and unloaded by 11am Monday.It therefor has a maximum of 43 Hours (you have to knock off at least and hour each end, the train can't set off at the same time the ferry arrives so lets say 40 hours or so travelling and loading/unloading time)to make this round trip.
Lets forget the arguement about whether midnight Sunday is the start of Sunday or the end of Sunday because here it is obvious it is the end on Sunday.
Now I don't know how long it would have taken to steam from Kyle of Lochalsh neither do I know how long it would take to unload and load, including loading coal for the ships boilers no doubt, but I would say that this could not be done without working on a Sunday. (I refuse to call it the Sabbath it is not the name of a day of the week that I recognise)
I am however happy to be proved wrong, especially by those still alive who can remember it!
Thanks for the kind observation that I 'know my ferries', but I do wish you weren't all anonymous; I was brought up to put my name to anything I wrote.
The Stornoway was (and is) at the Matheson Road end of Francis Street, so Mr MacRae would have been but two minutes' drive from the No. 1 Pier, if that itself.
It's important to remember that there is a big practical difference between a small passenger steamer leaving a port late on Sabbath night and a behemoth of a modern RO/RO ferry puffing in twice a day to disgorge dozens and dozens of cars. (The LOCH SEAFORTH could only carry sixteen, each sling-loaded aboard rather laboriously by crane, and from its inauguration in 1964 most Lewis drivers preferred to use the new hoist-loading, drive-on car ferry from Uig to Tarbert.
I'm still researching this, but my hunch is that sailings late on Sabbath night started during the Great War to ensure a more reliable connection with the Inverness train from Kyle of Lochalsh - an important consideration for servicemen on limited leave and whose time was precious.
In the circumstances, Christian protest would have been muted - but we should remember besides that Britain was then much less democratic than today. During the First World War women still did not have the vote (it was the 1920s before they could even serve on a jury) and, indeed, not even all adult men. And only rate-payers would have been allowed to vote in elections to Stornoway Town Council.
Kenneth MacRae, inducted as minister of Stornoway late in 1931 from a charge in Skye, had just won a remarkable victory against LMS Railways in their bid to run Sunday trains to Skye - organising a formidable boycott of their services. LMS, at that time, owned a 50% share in David MacBrayne Ltd. and he would have locked horns on a new front with relish, if not carrying the day until after another appalling war.
This instance apart, David MacBrayne Ltd did not operate Sunday sailings anywhere until 1972 - on the Mull ferry. (The Skye ferry at Kyleakin was an anomalous West Highland outpost of the Caledonian Steam Packet Co. Ltd, with whom MacBraynes were effectively merged from 1969 under the Scottish Transport Group, though management, livery and the names were not formally conjoined until 1973 - indeed, David MacBrayne Ltd still exists as a holding company.
So John MacLeod dismisses the evidence of past Sunday sailings. It doesn't count because the boat wasn't big enough! it was during the great war so soldiers needed to make the most of their leave time (this could be said of today for off island workers)and christians were not allowed to protest hmmmmm, oh, and we were less democratic.
John you seem to be in denial, the ferry ran and used time during Sunday in order to undertake its timetable. No amount of your rather weak excuses for why this happened can alter that.
Well, tell me who you are and I'll be happy to argue! With the overwhelming demand on Lewis forv Sunday ferries, as y'all incessantly assure us, there's not the least reason to fear coming out of this collective Witness Protection Programme.
Captain Swing, its a trap!
Mainwaring: 'Don't tell him who you are Pike.'
German U-Boat commander: 'Ha-ha, Pike; Your name will also go on ze list.'
Heaven forfend that Rev Macrae would have "driven" to the ferry in what was probably still considered as Sunday. Oh, but that wouldn't count as a car isn't public transport?
There's many a Minister and other church-goer that doesn't consider Sunday to be over until they rise from their beds on a Monday morning after a nights sleep.
Give 10 people a chapter of the Bible to interpret and you'll get 10 different interpretations, but which one is right?
Reagrdless of arguments over whether Lewis is regarded as backward or not, it is abosolutely ridiculous that this debate is even taking place!
If it wasn't so inotolerant, I would think the presbyterian whinging about being persecuted pretty hilarious- which is priceless coming from such a homophobic, misogynistic, parochial outfit.
Religion has way too much political clout here- it's a mini theocracy.
Is this the same John Macleod who has flooded Hebrides news with vile and offensive letters?
If so, then you sir, are a seething racist and bigot.
You have dismissed people as 'incomers' as if they have no valid opinion. If you're attitudes to mostly English 'incomers' where used against Pakistanis or Black people you would be looking at a prison sentence.
(But I suppose some people are fair game in your mind.)
Suppose all the islanders who have left, or will leave, in all of our history, was never accepted into the community.
In Australia, Canada, America, mainland Scotland, England etc, full of expat Leodsachs (and their descendants) living there are 'incomers' according to your twisted world view.
I'm glad to use this anonymity to protect myself from extremists like you. Quite how you can post on here with a clear and supposedly objective conscience astounds me.
You are a racist and nothing less.
A vote for the BNP last week?
Vile and offensive letters on Hebrides News? Dear, dear. I suppose you'll mean the one from that lady who announced, with no discernible sense of irony, that supporters of Sunday ferries had never, never insulted 'extreme religious fundamentalists.'
No, I am not a racist, nor a bigot; and I abominate the BNP and would never vote for it. The pint I have made, with all courtesy, is that it is imprudent and, in the judgement of most, discourteous for a recent arrival in a community to attack the religion and culture of its people. The traditional Lord's Day on this ialand is known round the world and those who choose to move here do so in that knowledge.
It should be noted that very many recent incomers support our Lord's Day - including several local ministers, like Revs. Andrew Coghill and Bruce Jardine; and that many incomers who agitate for Sunday ferries are lowland Scots; and that some of the most strident voices are island-born and bred.
It nevertheless remains valid, and fair, to question the weight of opinion offered by any recent arrival when it is an attack on long-standing local culture and especially when it is couched in abusive, scornful terms - still more so when a coward will not even append his name to it.
As for 'bigot', I'm getting a wee bit tired of being called one and resent its sloppy use to attack those who merely hold a strong religious opinion - not something fashionable in our day, but nevertheless a fundamental right in a liberal democracy.
A bigot is someone who hates and/or defames in moral terms an entire class of people, or an individual, purely on account of a morally neutral factor like colour, religious faith, opinion or nationality. 'I disagree with Free Church teaching n the Lord's Day,' is not a bigoted statement. 'Opponents of Sunday ferries are extreme religious fundamentalists,' is. 'Paul Blake's views on Sunday ferries are half-baked and silly, and as a recent incomer from England they carry little weight.' is not bigoted; 'Paul Blake is an English [insert epithet of choice]...' certainly would be.
Anyway, I am no longer prepared to argue here. If I wish to read puerile and anonymous statements, I can inspect the walls of any public convenience. Sorry, Angus, and thanks for being a wonderful audience.
On a point of information:
1. mv Loch Seaforth had a service speed of 13.5 Knots
2 The navigable distance pier to pier Stornoway Kyle is 63 miles
3 She left Kyle at 1600
4 She left Stornoway at 2330 except for Monday morning when she left at 0030.
5 I don't think Rev Macrae had a car and he lived within ten mins walk from the pier
6 There was no 15 min check-in to board as many times there were pier head jumps aboard when the gangway had been removed.
7 Her engines were not coal powered
8 It is obvious that the benefits of actual experience is lost on the youngsters and incomers who seem to be the most active agitators for a 'Sunday Ferry'
John MacLeod and I may not agree on this issue, but he has the courage and honesty to put his real name to everything he says and everything he believes in.
To be shot at mercilessly by *anon* is not fair. If you can at least have a single nom de plume then other readers can judge you as they judge John.
John, don't apologise for the way this forum has developed - it is here specifically to allow anyone and everyone (myself included) to espouse views that are often unsaid and may not be entirely popular.
So now what am I going to do?
John Macleod, or someone who prophesies to be him, his Blog profile was very scant, (so much for his comments on anonymous posters), but judging from his style of writing it was him, although, if someone was impersonating him it was very convincing, has gone off in a huff.
Clearly he can't stand the heat of robust debate, either that or he knows he's lost the argument, in any case, Byeeee, I look forward to bumping into you one day on a Ferry or at the Sports Centre some Sunday soon, then we can have a good laugh over how we used to have slanging matches.
As to my participation in the Witness Protection Scheme, and how did you know that? friends in high places! perhaps, that is between me an my Parole Officer, Sh*t I've gone and let it slip. Oh well better start packing, must find another quiet backwater to go to so that I and try to bring it into the 20th Century, with a view to making it into the 21st Century sometime in the next 90 or so years. Well you have to do something don't you?
Anon 3:16
Read my comment and the timetable refered to in the Blog. I's all about 1918, the Loch Seaforth was not built until 1947!
16:00 4pm it's the fffffing same.
and what is point 8?
It is reasonable to allow people to remain anonymous particularly when John Macleod has a track record of atacking islanders who put their head above the parapet in his journalism.
Sadly, he is also a bigot - as is everyone who is a member or adherent of our Free churches - though not the Church of Scotland.
The reason is that the so-called Free churches subscribe to the Westminster Confession of Faith, a vile document penned by desperate, miserable men who wanted to scare people into staying in the church.
Read chapter 25, for example, and its reference to Roman Catholics and the Pope as the Antichrist.
Happily, the Church of Scotland eventually dissociated itself from those passages in 1986.
Contrary to what some present-day hypocrites claim, those passages are absolutely fundamental to these churches' teachings.
Which is why I will never set foot in a Free Church again. Those who do merely endorse these evil rants that people like John Macleod and his father have made such shameful careers out of.
Well I'm glad we've addressed Mr Macleod. And interesting to read your response.
There is most definitely a reason why I would not use my real name. And there it is. (You) Although it might be quite funny to see how much poison could drip from your pen, (or keyboard)
You said--"still more so when a coward will not even append his name to it."
Woopey doo,I am a coward. And you, who hides behind negative politeness and snide insidious remarks are a noble lion hearted individual?
And you still are a racist, You said---
"Paul Blake's views on Sunday ferries are half-baked and silly, and as a recent incomer from England they carry little weight"
EMPHASIS on 2nd part, from 'as', ie, as a consequence of being from England, your opinions don't matter.
(I do not know who Paul Blake is but I sympathise him immensely for being the target of your vitriol. I have read his letter and he seems to be a paradigm of rationality. So now do you know why I don't name myself)
For crying out loud, using the word incomer like that is extremely racist. Does it matter if one is an "incomer" from England, Timbuctoo, or Ullapool, living here. The very word "incomer" is extremely bigoted.
Again, to re use my argument. Imagine if every islander who has ever left, to emigrate, work or study, could NEVER be fully accepted into his new community.
How ironic that Rev Cogill wrote a letter titled "Sunday ferry supporters do stoop to personal attacks" when one of the top anti Sunday sailings cheerleaders (yourself) does exactly that.
But slinging abuses around won't get us anywhere.
How about, all the anti ferry people, if you are so confident of the moral majority, give us a referendum?
(Calmac does not even need a referendum as it is not accountable in the political sense. But it would help)
That done and dusted, perhaps we can get back to rational debate re this post, whether or not the ferry was in motion/loading up, on a Sunday. Which appears to be so.
--------------------------------
Dear Angus, you ascribe to John Macleod 'courage'.
The real courageous people are the ones who cannot speak out, because of fear of vilification in their community. The anti Sundays strut around like peacocks proclaiming themselves while we have to hide in hushed tones. That is why we NEED A SECRET BALLOT REFERENDUM.
That said, I have taken your word regarding the anonymity and from now on I will be known as 'Anti racist'
It is still anonymous, but at least everyone will know everything I say and can hold me to account over it.
Here we go. How's this?
I have David MacBrayne, official guide book from 1907, and interesting reading it makes. Stornoway steamer sailed every night, except Saturday at 1020pm to make 7am arrival at Mallaig, and connect with onward train service. Obviously there was more leeway, and sense in what was acceptable to fit in with travel patterns of the day. I believe that there was no Sunday train service so the issue of an overnight Saturday into Sunday sailing was a no brainer.
However the Glasgow Inverness steamer (yes there was one!) stopped over at Fort William on Sundays (northbound, giving passengers the opportunity to ascend Ben Nevis.(yes it does actually say that!) The Caledonian Canal was probably shut on Sunday, but my research does not go that far as yet.
Apart from that there was an extensive network of steamers which if operated today with modern tonnage would provide a service second to none.
yours etc
Ruraidh
(which in the Hebrides is nearly as anonymous as Angus Macleod)
Anyway,Midnight is a pure secular end/beginning of the day. The Sabbath ends at Sunset in the OT.
It is strange how all this anti-John Macleod campaign has started all of a sudden. Could it be that he publicly announced in the WHFP that he had canceled his SNP membership after 25 years. Where he stated that he could not associate himself with hypocrites like the Barra Bhuoy and the Beach Buoy. "After all he was Beach Buoy right hand man at the election in 2007".
How this must bring back memories Angus when they expelled you and treated you like something you would scrape off the bottom of your shoe.
9.38 pm - the Sabbath in the Old Testament is the same Sabbath that the Jews observe to this day, sunset on Friday to Sunset on Saturday!
Nothing to do with Sunday then?
Speaking of which, it's been a lovely day to get the washing dry and the cars cleaned. Not a neighbour disturbed in the process.....
I'll say this to John.
What about the born and bred islanders who want a Sunday ferry?
From the way you put your points across, its as if all supporters of Sunday sailings arent from here.
Actually Mr MacLeod, if one follows the old testament of the bible - which any sabbath proponent must then the Sabbath runs from sunset on Friday until sunset on the Saturday.
why do i get the feeling that 9:38and 2:44 talk to themselves
Of little interest in response to 3.16, I'm sure, in the heat of this debate is the fact that, my quirky useless youthful memory recalls that the Rev Macrae did have a car. The reason I remember is that, very unusually, it was Renault Dauphine! May have been red in colour.
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